I must admit, my self-assurance wobbled a bit the other night in Baradin Hold. After my usual Commanding Shout, Shield Block, Heroic Throw, Charge, Shield Slam and Heroic Strike, I was ready to settle into showing this PuG just how awesome a tank I was - despite the fact Heroic Strike missed.
One Feral Charge, Mangle and Maul later, and I wasn't tanking at all.
I quickly consulted the ever trusty combat log, expecting an uncommon (but possible) occurrence of both that Mangle and Maul critically striking but, alas, that's not what happened. All those two attacks did was hit their target, and it was enough for a bear in significantly worse gear than me to reduce my proudly constructed warrior to a 2nd rate threat generator.
I'm not kidding when I tell you it stung.
The backdrop here is that I play with a death knight when tanking raids. It's long since been established that, all things equal, a DK will generate more threat than a warrior on both single targets and multiple ones. I also totally understand that my love for Revenge encourages me to use it far more than I need to, and that my use of Inner Rage (or general lack of) is far from strong. I'm also rubbish at remembering Rend despite the presence of a Feral in our raids, and I don't spec into Deep Wounds because I like the utility of other talents. In short, I'm totally aware that my threat output isn't as high as it could be. Of course I'd also heard the whispers that warriors were sub-par in the threat stakes but, as usual, I decided this wasn't worth serious consideration until it started to bother me.
Well, now it bothers me. Is warrior threat so astonishingly poor that a worse geared druid will pull off by default? Is this another case of having to pay the fiddler for the extra utility a warrior brings? Have Blizzard gone overboard with nerfs to Protection warriors? Am I personally just doing it horribly wrong?
I think this boils down to three issues that I need to address:
Burst threat, class balance and sustained threat.
Burst threat is an easy thing to identify problems with, and not something I'm generally that worried about. If it's burst threat I want, I'll do exactly what I did in the pull erstwhile described, but slot Concussion Blow in on my 3rd GCD (after Shield Slam and Devastate). If I'm being pulled off under those circumstances, assuming the attacks land, then I can't be held accountable for it and it's a balancing problem.
Balance is a bigger concern for me right now. Since 4.0, warriors have seen three significant changes to their threat generation mechanics and all play their part.
1) First of all, the great Heroic Strike nerf hit Protection warriors very hard - particularly if, like me, you were a fan of Revenge. This nerf was nowhere near made up for in the Devastate buff we got as a trade, as I was using Heroic Strike FAR more than I was using Devastate and it was contributing far more damage. I'm not 100% sure how much damage and threat I lost as a result of this, but we're talking about one Hell of a lot.
2) The removal of the additional threat component from Shield Slam has contributed. I simply assumed that the threat from Shield Slam must have been overpowered, hence the 100% nerf we got to the additional threat it generated. If its damage was fine but its threat was out of kilter, then it's fair enough to remove the threat. I also read that the warrior reliance on Shield Slam was a bit too heavy, thus spreading the load seemed sensible.
Those two combined make up for a substantial threat loss that I assumed was being made up for elsewhere. Warriors were not out-performing their tanking counterparts in either threat or DPS, certainly not significantly, so a flat nerf of such dizzying magnitude would have been unquestionably brutal. But looking back outside of the Devastate buff, it does appear to be exactly what happened. This brings me onto my third point.
3) The face of Inner Rage changed completely. From consuming more rage per ability to simply lowering the cooldown on our rage dumps, the developers basically admitted that the ability itself was practically useless in its original form and needed updating. So bad was the idea all told, however, they even threw it into the doldrums of the levelling experience, while replacing its Cataclysm plateau with an entirely new ability.
Here's where my eyes narrow and I focus on the issue.
In reality, the nerf to Heroic Strike hasn't shaken out as a nerf at all - what's actually happened is a cut to the damage of each swing, but an increase in the frequency of them. The damage buff to Devastate roughly equates with the threat nerf to Shield Slam if we want to really simplify it, so I'm left at the end of this napkin musing with a blood-boiling question:
Is warrior sustained threat now balanced around a mechanic that the developers vowed to get rid of?
I cannot comment on the overall output regarding comparable values of tank threat. I can't say for certain if warriors are indeed bottom of the pile all things equal, just as I can't comment on the real time impact of any threat nerfs the other tanks have seen. But if the developers really think it's acceptable for my spec to be relegated to something they admitted was a deplorable chore, then it calls for a pretty immediate explanation from them and might give a clue as to why the "Ask the Devs - Tanking" answers are taking so long.
This, of course, is a reactionary thought flow that is laced with frustration. It could be way off mark, the whole problem could be my playstyle/spec and it's much ado about nothing. But I simply cannot reconcile the problems I've been having recently with what's going on between chair and screen, so I'd really appreciate some input as to what is going on with my spec. Please, just put it to me if I'm being stupid here.
But if I'm seriously expected to be the tank that's routinely lowest on threat, while also being the most fragile, then it may finally be time to reroll to DPS. This has gone on since The Burning Crusade and "bezt tankz vanilla lol" is no longer a viable reason for it; nor is the spurious "utility" that is typically only of value in five-man dungeons.
If I'm the problem, I can work on it. If I'm not the problem, playing a class that's weaker by design is just not fun anymore.
Sometimes the initial phase in combat (also after taunting/tank switching) looks like this: miss, miss, dogde, parry, miss, miss, dodge. That means no threat. Now the other tank may not realise this and land all their abilities. Not a good situation.
ReplyDeleteCan you completely rule this out in your case?
Or maybe a Hunter or Rogue "misdirected"?
Add Shield Block and Inner Rage to your charge (I macro them together). That will allow lots of HS early.
ReplyDeleteI can't rule out Misdirection (there was a hunter, but I didn't see it) and I'm not sure about the bear using Enrage.
ReplyDeleteBut my point is more about the implementation of Inner Rage. We were promised button spamming was a thing of the past at launch, yet now we're right back being balanced against something that is:
a) Garbage.
b) Gutted by periods of low rage.
@ Dana - I always use Shield Block on the pull, but I appreciate the tip. :P
As a druid, I really don't understand how a lesser geared druid could have pulled off you with just a Mangle and a Maul. He shouldn't have even had the rage to pull that combo off until a few seconds into the fight. On average, Shield Slam hits harder than Mangle, especially if you have the talent that increases its damage when Shield Block is up. Maul usually hits harder than Heroic strike, but it shouldn't be so much harder that he actually generates enough threat to pull.
ReplyDeleteSorry if I'm overanalyzing, but you're right in that it shouldn't be happening. Druids do have the highest threat generation at the moment, but that's due to Berserk and how well they scale with Vengeance. He couldn't have had high Vengeance yet, so maybe he popped Berserk? That's his bad if he did.
In relation to your points,
1) The great Heroic Stike nerf was also the great Maul nerf. Druids lost a ton of threat to this as well. If this was the problem, it would also affect druids. Given the circumstances, I think it's safe to say it doesn't.
2) All tanks lost their additional threat tacked onto specific abilities in 4.0. Blizzard buffed the damage of those abilities and increased all tanks' threat modifiers to compensate. This nerf happened to everyone.
Now, there is no doubt warriors struggle with threat. They have the worst of it, I'm afraid. But I believe the problem is due to lack of a dps cooldown. Druids have Berserk, Paladins have wings, Death Knights have Rune Weapon. Warriors have nothing. Blizzard could remedy this by giving Warriors a dps cooldown to help with the initial pull, but who knows what their plan is. I'm sure they know it's a problem, but who knows if they consider it "enough" of a problem.
I think Sunnier kind of hit the nail on the head. For me, the most threat frustration I have is on Ascendent Council, when Cap'n Planet comes out. Our arcane mage is great, but I don't think he's managed to find either mirror images or invisibility in his spellbook. It's the snap agro we just don't have. Adding a ranged component to that just compounds the issue.
ReplyDeleteYou said you checked combat logs, so I assume you would have seen a taunt show up? It seems silly to ask, but, I mean, in BHs I've seen stupider things, and I've had agro ripped at the start when right after 4.0.6 a MM hunter opened with an Aimed Shot that wasn't misdirected (I pulled with the then still on GCD Heroic Leap, so I guess I was asking for it).
The one (possible) solution I see is Recklessness being available to be used in all stances, except that I assume (haven't checked the PTR) that it still increases damage taken by 20%. If not, and the + damage is removed, popping shield block and recklessness would be great off the pull (and would convince me to spec back into Heavy Repercussions). Maybe it would be worth it even with the +20%? Hit Shieldwall off the bat, I never seem to need it the first 2+ minutes of a fight anyway.
It's not you, these are constant frustrations. I don't think it's something regular, either; most of my groups and raids go off without a hitch. It's that we don't have the control over whether they do that seems to be the problem.
Thanks, all - I've appreciated the input, especially Sunnier who explained the nerfs other classes have gone through. I totally believed that the other tanks had gotten nerfs, I just wasn't sure what they were; and the bear in question did, indeed, use Berserk on that pull.
ReplyDeleteI asked him. :P
I suppose to a certain extent, I'm irritated by the fact that warriors do, again, appear to be the worst threat tanks. It's all very well arguing that it doesn't matter when the fight is under way, but it still doesn't feel good to be known as a tank that's going to do worse than another purely by virtue of my class.
And the fact Inner Rage is a part of the cause is... Deflating. Warriors do have a DPS cooldown in the form of Recklessness, but it's on a far higher cooldown than the others of its type and is a crit boost as opposed to a flat damage boost, so I'm not sure how it compares.
My other gripe, of course, is that the problem of warrior gear scaling hasn't been fixed. Taking no damage is a Vengeance drop for everyone, but warriors are once again rage-starved when this starts to happen which robs us of both our primary resource as well as the aforementioned Inner Rage.
We fought for rage on avoidance for years, and then it was gone again in a blink of an eye. Who thought that was a good idea?
Meh. "We are where we are". Unfortunately, the more I find that saying being more accurately stated as "we are where we were", the more I'm inclined to find something else to do with my time.
Not sure on this one as I haven't hit 85 ony warrior tank, but I have leveled him 90% of the way through dungeons and I've never had aore enjoyable experience.
ReplyDeleteWith my DK (85 well geared) it was a constant battle between threat and survival. If someone messed up ad I had to recover, it resulted in missed death strikes, spiller health and "I can't heal you" comments.
Much happier with the warrior playatyle, although apparently we are all moving to the DK style.