I distinctly recall Ghostcrawler's commentary prior to Cataclysm, particularly when discussing what he termed "the PvP arms race".
It interested me at the time, because it was something that I felt had a profound impact on PvE and wasn't just reserved for those duking it out in arenas and battlegrounds. The basic premise is that each class needed to have a counter to something that was happening to them, roughly giving them a chance for survival. Stuns, roots, CC and high damage were all things that had to be countered in some way, so classes were given utility to allow this while attempts were also made to ensure each class had both offensive and defensive options.
That's a terrible opening paragraph; but simply put, Ghostcrawler was worried that so many counter-counter-counter-counters were being used among classes in PvP, and it wasn't making for decent or enjoyable gameplay.
What struck me was that this concept of the arms race first reared its head for me during the transition from Outland to Northrend, and it was in PvE. I know many readers will recall the difference between the Protection warrior and the Protection paladin in The Burning Crusade; while the warrior had the cooldowns, mitigation and single-target threat to be the most effective boss tanks, the paladin was far and away the better option for any trash duties and/or heroic instances. A healer could literally spam a paladin, safe in the knowledge that they wouldn't get aggro by doing so.
When our adventures started in Northrend, it was decided that each tank should be capable of boss tanking. This meant that the traditional tools required for boss tanking (cooldowns, mitigation, threat generation etc) were given to all of the tanks in order to allow them to fulfil the role. What was NOT rebalanced, however, was the significant advantage the paladin still had in AoE situations, both with regard to threat generation and an unusually high chance to block. What essentially happened was that the erstwhile reason for using a warrior to tank bosses was gone, and he was still the inferior choice for trash/heroic dungeon tanking.
This probably reeks of QQ.
It should not be argued that warriors weren't viable tanks during Wrath of the Lich King. For the vast majority of the playerbase, success was not dependent upon the class of your tank; it was dependent upon his ability as a player. This gave rise to the oft-repeated mantra of "warriors are fine", and we've been hearing similar repeats of this cry ever since. If something is viable for the content, and your raid isn't being held back, then the spec is "fine" and you shouldn't complain.
The problem is that "fine" does not mean "strong".
Last night was a first for me. Something happened that had never happened before and, honestly, I didn't know how to react to it. During a night of heroic Ragnaros attempts, my coveted tanking spot was given to a player deemed to be a "better" class. He wasn't a better player, nor was he a more loyal member of the guild, and he certainly wasn't a chosen elite of the guild's hierarchy. No, he was simply considered the better class choice due to how they guild intended to do the encounter.
Whether or not you can justify this isn't really important. The fact is that it happened, and it happened for a perfectly viable reason beyond favouritism or anything so petty. If each tank has the mitigation, threat and cooldowns to do the job then a raid leader has to look at what ELSE that class is bringing to the table and make a judgement on what they want the most. And at time of writing, warriors and death knights have fallen behind in this "arms race" I mentioned above.
All four tanks have the basic tools with which to do their job. Unfortunately, paladins simply have far too much utility and druids can contribute far more damage when not actually tanking anything by switching form. The fact that both also have powerful raid cooldowns, which warriors and death knights lack, is a further nail in the coffin. This is not an argument about whether or not death knights or warriors are viable tanks - I've no trepidation in saying that, to date, the best tank I've played with happens to be a death knight on an RP realm. The point I'm making is that the arms race is causing discrepancies at the highest levels of content because certain tanks have capabilities that cannot be made up for by skill.
The reason this is a problem should be obvious to anyone who's looked at the set-bonuses of the four tanking classes.
They're raid cooldowns.
Put bluntly, Divine Guardian is so strong that the developers have decided the other tanks need something similar to it in order to be competitive. Rather than simply putting Divine Guardian into the Holy tree, where it should have been from the start, other tanks are being propped up via an ugly fix that is gear dependent rather than anything to do with skill or sound judgement. The problems here are absolutely manifold when you think of the implications. If Blizzard are giving raid cooldowns to all the tanks, it's a safe assumption to say the tanks are going to need them. And if the tanks are going to need them, it's going to have a pretty horrid impact on the three classes that must net four tier pieces.
All I can say is ouch.
The arms race which the developers want to move away from, is being continued in a fashion that will STILL be painful on three out of the four tanks. Not only that, even when those tier pieces are gained you're looking at tanks giving up their personal cooldowns in order to provide raid cooldowns when the one at the head of the arms race, the paladin, is calmly deciding which piece of gear he likes the itemization of the most.
Rounding out, this has got to stop - it's not good for the game. The indication here is that raid cooldowns are going to be part of the tanking arsenal in the future, and this is another step in beefing up the tank role beyond its function. It's time to streamline class abilities in order to provide the levels of required utility, not keep strapping on more weapons. For paladins, the simplest and most elegant fix is to completely replace Aura Mastery for the Holy paladin and put Divine Guardian in its place. Other classes could also use the removal of some abilities that, quite frankly, do not add anything compelling to their gameplay at all.
If you think about it, removing abilities that don't readily have a clear niche opens up the opportunity for better abilities to be added in the next levelling jump. If we keep going down this route, we're going to end up with another UI addition in the near future.
More friggin' action bars.
Sorry you lost your spot to another tank dude, but Warriors are an excellent tank for Heroic Rag. We're not really disadvantaged on that fight at all and I would even argue the opposite. I feel pretty confident saying that considering my Firelord title.
ReplyDeleteWe already have a raid CD. It's not a bad one. Next tier we're going to be the only spec in the game with two. We also take the least amount of damage of any tank. We've come a long way from Tier 8 where warriors were a horrible liability if you let them tank certain hardmodes. Warriors are not in a bad spot anymore. Warriors rule.
The tank role SHOULD be beefed up, we hardly do anything in raids these days and the tanking role is by far the easiest role to play in a raid. I've been advocating removing raid CDs from healers, and giving them to tanks instead, for a long time now. Tanks know all about cooldowning to reduce damage, healers should be about throughput and they already have enough to worry about. The raid CD issue for them is also a lot more bitter than it currently is for tanks.
That said, Blizzard rushing to give everybody raid CDs means that raids now have more CDs than they actively need. A serious heroic-10 no longer needs to bring 2 Prot Paladins in order to get the most cooldowns possible. My heroic-10 group started Cataclysm with 1 raid CD. We now have 5. Next tier we'll have seven. It's not a big deal for us to sit a paladin or a disc priest anymore, even on fights where cooldowns matter, simply because we now have so many of them. If your guild decided they needed to squeeze every CD possible, that's more their own issue than it is Blizzard's. Heroic Ragnaros isn't even a raid-CD heavy fight, some people three-heal the damn thing on 25.
I think I have to chime in with Arazu here. While I agree that Paladins are better for some utility, how many times could they complain about a warriors "toolbox" being more diverse than theirs was? For a very long time, they didnt even have a viable interrupt mechanism.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Arazu that warriors take, by far, the least amount of damage. Although my dps spec if better than our other tanks, I had to tank Heroic Bale because frankly, he just took way too much damage.
The other issue is the "homoginization" of the tanking classes. Honestly, I liked the idea of tanks having their strengths and weaknesses.
Warriors - Mobile and least amount of dmg
Pallys - Raid utility and raid cooldowns
DK's - Self heal, magic damage mitigation and strong dps
Bears - High dps and raid cooldowns
I hate the idea of letting every tank be for every event. In come cases, one tank is just better than another. A perfect example of this was I recall getting replaced on Tidewalker back in the day because Druids just have higher health pools that made healing them easier. Sometimes youre the windshield, sometimes the bug. But either way, challenging GUILDS to have the best makeup, the best strat and the best equipment (resist gear for Hydross for example) was what made running a guild fun.
While I understand you being unhappy about being replaced, I suspect you would be a better choice for the Bale fight (single tank).
Hang in there. You guys will get him.
Hi, guys. :)
ReplyDeleteI think my complaint about being benched has been a little misunderstood. There's no doubt warriors are strong tanks on Ragnaros, however, the tactic chosen made the druid the better option purely because he can pop kitty and deliver more DPS. What frustrates me most, I guess, is that I had to pay the price for what was (in essence) a DPS failure.
I wouldn't argue any tanks are weak, certainly not to the point where one isn't viable (I know the issues with DK's). The problem I'm talking about is that when everyone's "viable", the debate can quickly turn to who's best - and this is where the paladin shines. It's not just Divine Guardian, it's also the other powerful utility they bring to the table which other tanks simply have no answer to.
And don't forget, the difference between warrior damage taken and paladin damage taken is fleshed out in the paladin's favour by his ability to self-heal far beyond what warriors can manage. A strong physical mitigation cooldown, a strong (albeit glyphed) magical mitigation cooldown, full CTC and the only cooldown of the four tanks that will provide damage reduction AND save him if all else fails.
You'll have a hard time convincing me warriors are more durable than paladins, I'm afraid.
I also enjoy the thought of beefing up the tanking role, but not in this way. As I said, Divine Guardian should belong to Holy paladins which would give each healing class a powerful DR cooldown - after that, you can be done with it. Personally, the "beefing" up I want to see is the active mitigation model. THAT'S where I think tanking has lost its appeal, it's just too similar to DPS in playstyle. Of course, how that shakes out might mean raid cooldowns are a compelling way of giving us more to do. xD
And thanks for the "windshield and bug" analogy, Unger. Like I said, this was the first time I'd ever been sat on account of my class and I didn't really know how to react to it properly. Your little anecdote provided that perspective I needed. :)
Holy Paladins already have a strong raid CD (and had one of the original three), Hpals are not the healers bitter about them.
ReplyDeleteProt Paladins have somewhat better spellburst cooldowns than Warriors do, I suppose, but the only actual utility they have over us is a resistance aura. Warriors already have two different Paladin Hand spells. Warriors also have full CTC in appropriate gear and block harder than Paladins do. I'm not going to argue that Warriors are more durable than Paladins, but I am going to argue that Paladins are not -more- durable than we are.
Now that everyone is viable, different tanks shine for different reasons. My guild got our realm-first H-Rag kill -because- I was a warrior, and we very well could've missed the realm-first had I been a different class. My utility got us our kill, I feel like that answers the different and still-valid utility of other tanks quite well.
I actually do disagree with regard to the suvivability. Even though Pallys have a better CTC capping ability, they lack the critical block component.
ReplyDeleteAt one point, my guild had at least 2 bosses in this expac that our Paladin simply couldnt tank. Chimeron (BWD) simply trucked him and now with Baleroc we have the same issue.
I did a quick analysis of the damage that similarly geared warriors and paladins were taking on Baleroc and across the board, the warriors took less damage. Looking at top posts, generally, the tanking playstyle is solid. Obviously, you dont want to confuse a warrior who is using proper cds against a Pally that is not.
It IS possible that with 4.3, get CTC situation will push pallys higher on the suvivability meter, but for now, Paladins do not have the survivability of warriors.
As I said before, as a raid member, getting replaced due to no fault of your own (a class optimization decision) really hurts. But as a raid leader and GM, the real fun for an event goes beyond actual execution of a strategy. It goes to the chess match of putting the right resources in place. I dont think that players should be chosen ONLY on player talent. There should be some element of class optimization that plays a part in end game guild's decisions when working on progression.
I know this is beside the point of this article, but you revaled your inability to consider different aplicationc of talents/skills...i am talking ofc about saying that Aura Mastery is useless for holy paladin.....it is raid-wide magic damage mitigation cooldown, and something, that if removed would mean end of holy paladin in PVP. So please next time you want to use some example, think about what you write BEFORE you publish it.....btw, sorry about my grammar, english is not my first, nor my second language
ReplyDelete