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Monday, October 08, 2012

Give us this day...

Our “dailies” bread.

Quite a lot’s been written about dailies since the launch of Mists of Pandaria, largely because the sheer volume of them (and their perceived necessity) practically overwhelms you when you hit the big ding and start turning your attention to developing your character. I’ve already been involved in a few discussions about just how necessary these dailies are for said development, but it’s no exaggeration to say that this is probably the largest end-game quest assault we’ve seen yet.

I’m not sure if it’s positive or negative.

For me, I found myself nodding at Spinks’ point when she spoke about a daily routine that keeps people logging in day after day. But it would be remiss of me to ignore the discontent that has accompanied the expectation of questing your way up to 90 for the reward of… Yet more quests. There’s no doubt questing itself has come on remarkably in the last seven to eight years, yet daily quests still seem to be a cause of frustration amongst many.

Why is that?

Are the dailies necessary?


Let’s cut to the chase, here.

Those arguing that the dailies are an immediate necessity in order to develop your character are being dramatic. As you can see, I’ve barely bothered with the Klaxxi, Golden Lotus or Shado-pan and I’m currently the best geared Protection warrior on the Alliance side of the Sha’tar. This is because many players, rather than taking a practical approach, have simply jumped off the deep end and started grinding everything like their asses were on fire. Rather than realising that they have a hard cap of three thousand Valor, a cap you can only reach at the conclusion of your third week, there’s literally no reason to plough into those dailies with the voracity some claim is needed.

The complete dismantling of the Justice system is a side-debate that I’m not going to go into right now, but players effectively have a full three weeks before they have to start worrying about reputations. That’s plenty of time to take things more leisurely, especially considering some of the reputation requirements have been dropped.

That said, if you want to spend that Valor, you’re going to have to do your dailies at some point. There’s no avoiding it. Valor items are all behind reputation grinds for the Klaxxi, Golden Lotus, August Celestials and Shado-pan; worse (and correct me if I’m wrong), there’s absolutely no alternative to time-intensive daily quests with the odd turn-in. And because you can’t spend your Valor points until you unlock the vendor reputations, dailies cease being a way of making gold or unwinding with optional content and start being necessary grinds that you have to do, whether you want to or not.

Oops.

So we DO have to grind everything out?


Well, no – there are some major success stories here.

Namely, the Order of the Cloud Serpent, the Tillers and the Anglers are good examples of how dailies should be used. Not only do you have the dailies themselves, but there are turn ins that allow those who choose to grind out these reputations the option of doing them at their own pace. There are eggs with the Cloud Serpents and soil items for the Tillers, meaning that players can chase down the goodies as quickly as they like. In addition to this, there are normal quests that progress the story, help you to feel like you’re developing, and they also reward even more reputation for you to bank.

The key to this, however, is in one fact:

The rewards are entirely optional.

Mounts, pets, things for your farm or helpful fishing items are all very well, but are generally unrelated to anything else. If you want them you can chase them, but there’s no requirement to do so if you’re not interested in dailies or their rewards. Alas, the same cannot be said about the Valor vendors – if raids and dungeons are your thing, and you dislike quests, you’re still stuck with dailies so that you can spend your raid-earned currency. Dailies aren’t a choice for you, they’re a necessity, and with no alternative, there can only be one solution.

It’s just another needless grind that you’re shoved into.

So the key to good dailies is making them optional?


Well, not entirely, no.

Hiratha was telling me yesterday that she loved the Tol Barad dailies, largely because they were fun and randomized each day so you weren’t doing the same thing. I can get onboard with that, and genuinely think the same of the dailies in Pandaria – they’re imaginative, uncomplicated and a good laugh in some cases. I think the major snag is that when players feel like they’re doing them by necessity, they just want them over and done with as quickly as possible and have no interest in stopping to smell the roses.

I don’t think that’s the only snag, though.

The best reputation grinds in Pandaria, for me, are the Order of the Cloud Serpent. This is because it’s optional, but also grindable via turn-ins. If you don’t like daily quests, you can simply go for a few hours blast in order to get the required items to turn in and you’re laughing. There’s also the sense of progression throughout the reputation levels as new one-time quests pop up and continue the story, simultaneously breaking up the monotony of the dailies and providing good stage boundaries for the player to judge their progress by.

So, this proves that daily quests can be fun, meaningful and non-grindy. Where’s the problem?

The problem is that this model looks eerily like something presented six years ago in Shadowmoon Valley.

That’s right.

The Order of the Cloud Serpent is almost a carbon-copy of the Netherwing grind for the shiniest of Outland’s drakes. And while fun sets of dailies can hardly be construed as a bad thing, the implication is clearly that despite all of the design iteration on quests and the years we’ve had since Netherwing, next to no actual improvements or innovations have been made to the model. It’s exactly the same. For me, it’s no real surprise that less-talented developers have taken longer to reach the same conclusion, but that’s precisely what’s happened.

Phasing technology, personal progression and a feeling of continued evolution is what you get with the Tillers, my second favourite reputation faction in Pandaria. Building up your farm to look different and yield different results as time moves on. Yet, essentially, this faction is simply Farmville tacked on to the tradition of the Molten Front and, prior to that, the Isle of Quel’Danas. Yes, it can easily be argued that the Isle was a group effort to get the statue built, and it was, but the basic model is essentially the same; you “see” the progress being made visually, rather than on a progress bar, and you work toward completion of the project.

I’d say the Molten Front is probably the more accurate progenitor for the Tillers because Quel’Danas wasn’t randomized each day, but the Molten Front didn’t feel optional to many people because of the raid items that were unlocked throughout and there was no way to speed the process up via item turn-ins. It was a painful, and necessary, questing grind depending on your view.

Be clear, what exactly is your complaint?


I don’t have one! This isn’t a whinge. What I’m trying to say is two things:
    1) If you put raid gear behind a reputation grind, you’re making said grind “mandatory”. Worse, if you go ahead and make said grind manageable by only one activity (dailies) then you’re not providing any options to your players. This is bad design because you’re forcing players to do something they may not want to, for rewards that they might need.

    2) If you make rewards optional, such as mounts or pets, and provide additional means to grind a reputation quicker via turn-ins (Cloud Serpent, Sons of Hodir, Mag’har), then they can be fun and a player can make choices. It appears this is as good as it will ever get, as no meaningful innovation has been made to the model in over half a decade.

I think dailies are pretty enjoyable, and they’re a routine piece of content that you don’t need to consume as soon as you get your hands on them. That said, players shouldn’t feel that they “must” do dailies in order to progress their characters yet, here we are, in just that situation yet again in Mists of Pandaria. Hell, despite me saying you have three weeks before you have to start worrying about it, that’s me being unfair to progression raiders who want every leg up they can get as quickly as they can get it. I daresay there are plenty of raid leaders out there who would be somewhat bemused by a raider telling them they weren’t doing as good as they could do because they can’t be bothered with a daily quest grind.

Anyway, that’s enough for this verbose entry. How do you guys feel about dailies and how they’ve been implemented in Pandaria? Is there something I’ve missed? Am I just being stupid?

Or am I finally contented in the realisation that an aspect of the game I happen to like is as good as it gets?

Are you?

25 comments:

  1. I generally enjoy most of the dailies, with the exception of Golden Lotus. They feel incredibly grindy. They're the only set of quests that I will only do with a friend just so that they're over faster. Also, the Vale is so packed with people doing them.

    I love the Cloud Serpent ones best, followed closely by Tillers. After that probably Klaxxi.

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    1. I must admit, I don’t have any issues completing Golden Lotus but I’m on a medium-pop server which makes it easier – my gripe is that I “have” to do them, not that I want to do them (and I’ve avoided them until a couple of days ago).

      But I’m totally with you on OCS, the Tillers and the Klaxxi. The first two are optional and fun, while I just happen to really love the Klaxxi as a race. I’m struggling to find something from my time in the game that I think is cooler than my own personal Angel of Death. :)

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  2. Great title for a post about dailies! I admit I like the cloud serpent and tillers ones and anglers. I find it hard to get enthusiastic about golden lotus. I don't mind dailies, but I wish they were more amusing instead of grindy. Great post though Zell!

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    1. My problem is that I don't feel there's much of a choice in GL/SP/AC/Klaxxi - and that time I'm spending doing dailies could be spent levelling and battling with my crafty crustacean, Navie!

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  3. SpiritusRex9/10/12

    Great post, Zell. I think Blizz is short-sighted in making dailies the only way to earn reputation. I mean, let's face it, after a hard day of grinding through one's work at the office the LAST thing I think many want to do is come home and grind through a bunch of repetitive quests, day after day ad infinitum (it seems). To me, that sounds exactly like work. The difference? On the one hand, I get paid to grind through the day. On the other? I'm paying somebody else to make me grind through the night. Geez, Blizz, let me escape from the grind of life for a couple of hours without feeling like....I.....must....continue.....the....grind...

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    1. I actually realised today that it's worse than that; a post over at MMO-C pointed out that dailies are a requirement throughout the expansion if you want to keep earning charms for those extra rolls.

      Yuck.

      I mean, sure - the requirement gets lower each week but, even then, do I want to be doing dailies for the whole expansion over and over again?

      "No" is the short answer to that question.

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    2. SpiritusRex10/10/12

      Your new realization does not make me feel any better! :p

      I guess the short of it is choice. The reputation grinds, per se, is not a model I have a real problem with (attunements either). It's the fact that we are only given one option to grind the rep. Blizz has utilized several models of rep gaining over the years - remember cloth turn-ins? Or tabards? Why not bring those back? Or, tie-in professions to rep. I mean, I would much rather go gather some herbs, mill them and make some ink (hoping for the rare ink to make my Darkmoon card sets) and turn them in for Golden Lotus rep. First of all, it allows the player decide how they want to spend their time. Secondly, it allows the player to efficiently use their limited (in most cases) play time. And, thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, it gets players out in the world that Blizz has so beautifully constructed instead of standing around Seven Shrines, Stormwind or wherever the evil hordies congregate. And isn't THAT really the point of playing?

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    3. That's what's making it something of a deal breaker for people, I think - there's no options. Yeah, most of the reputations have turn in quests, but they're not easy to do and are extremely inefficient regardless.

      I love the cloth idea, though, and had forgotten about it. Considering the amount I have sitting in my bank with no current purpose, I'd love to be able to turn it in.

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    4. SpiritusRex11/10/12

      Perhaps the answer is rep tokens. In other words, all of the factions have dailies similiar to now. A player does the daily that they want to do. When the daily is completed (whether it's a Tiller's daily, Golden Lotus, or whatever), the player earns a "Reputation Token." The player can than take this token to whichever quartermaster he/she chooses, turn it in and receive "x" amount of reputation gain - an approach which was tried (if memory serves correctly) with the Trial of Crusader stuff. This sort of model provides a couple of benefits. First,that the PLAYER chooses to do the dailies he/she wants without limit while allowing for diversity, i.e., removing the grind of the same daily, day after day; and, secondly, it allows for the different types of players (raiders, crafters, achievers, pet battlers (?), etc.) to play the game they want to play.

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    5. Didn't they have these tokens during WotLK and you could buy them with Justice Points/Honour?

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  4. I think the important thing to remember in this is the difference between what "Blizzard requires" of players and what "Raid Leaders require" of players.
    Content is designed to be possible with the gear from the previous tier of content. Heroic 5-mans are managable with the gear from leveling/Regular 5-mans. Entry-level raids are managable with the gear from Heroic 5-mans. And so on.
    The Justice/Valor system and Daily Quests has always been intended as an alternate path to progressing/gearing your character, we as players have turned it into a mandatory thing.

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    1. I think it’s definitely true that raid leaders and Blizzard have different ideas about what should be considered “mandatory”.

      That said, I’m not sure about your second comment – sure, currency grinds were introduced as an alternative means to gearing, but that’s not how they ended up. Particularly during Cataclysm, Blizzard forced you to grind them because the raid loot tables were too shallow to fully gear up a character with the Valor Point vendor.

      Now, you can still find BiS items for Valor. That makes the rewards too enticing to be considered optional, in my opinion.

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    2. I imagine Blizzard is trying to find that sweet spot between making the currency gear worthwhile, but not so good that you don't need the raid drops. If everything on the vendor was sub-optimal, no one would want it, if it's optimal or even BiS then it's mandatory.
      I do get the complaints of people who don't want to "have to" do certain things, but the tabard system for rep in Cataclysm wasn't necessarily any better. Why should I be forced to spend my playtime endlessly running dungeons I out-gear to get rep when I'd rather be questing?
      Maybe Pandaria has swung too far in this direction, but I get the sense that Blizzard really wants us out in the world, not waiting in Orgrimmar/Stormwind for the queue to pop.

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    3. I think a lot of that's pretty fair. For me, my solution would be to reintroduce the reputation tabards (that I never liked), but have them generate reputation at a slower rate than previously. That way you can quest if you like, do dungeons if you like, or leisurely go your own way however you feel. Options are good.

      As for the Valor gear debate... Hopefully, we've seen the last of this as Valor starts upgrading existing gear rather than replacing it, but I'm still unsure if they're doing away with Valor items completely, or the new upgrade system will supplement them.

      Either way, I think the sweet spot would have been to simply make the Valor items identical to available raid drops in their itemization. I'm not sure that would be an all-round improvement to the system, though.

      Honestly?

      I think the whole looting model in WoW needs looked at, belt and braces. We've earned four raid drops up until this point, and only two are going to see use in a raid that's not doing terribly well.

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  5. I think I'm with SpiritusRex here. Dailies are okay when they are innovative, there is right amount of them and reputation/whatever gain is in line with the effort.

    I didn't mind doing Arget Tournament dailies back then although they were same everyday. I just thought effort and price were in line with each other and there wasn't other dailies to do at the same time. Now it feels like there is AT-dailies, Firelands-dailies, TBC-reputation dailies and few other dailies combined into one package when I'm looking the current available dailies.

    Currently it sucks that the optional reputations are the most fun ones with quite good amount of reputation gained but Golden Lotus/Klaxxi feel incredible boring and grindy. Pretty much the same quests everyday till the world ends.

    I'm currently working on Tillers, Cloud Serpent and Golden Lotus and going to hit exalted with OCS in a few days / within a week so I'm going to start Anglers after that. I won't drown into dailies that way.

    P.S. While you're at it, make reputations account-wide also but dailies only doable once per day with one account. Because currently I feel like reputation grinds might hold people from rerolling. For example I'm quite tempted to try out DK cause it's like a mix of warrior and warlock - my two favorite classes.

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    1. I think that's a really good point actually, Wil - that single "sets" of dailies are okay, but MoP seems to have launched with several. Rather than Cataclysm's (superior?) version of Tol Barad > Molten Front > rounding out, we get seven sets in one go and are expected to just deal with them.

      I stand by my original assessment, that if you're smart about how you approach dailies they can last longer and feel like much less of a grind than many are reporting.

      But Blizzard are basically forcing players to grind out reputations (which many don't like) and giving them only daily quests (which many don't like) in order to do 'em.

      It's a bit unfair.

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    2. Yeah, I don't even dare to count how many dailies there are currently available with some rewards/reputation. Probably a lot more than the daily quest cap was.

      I'm gonna be furious if there comes more dailies in the next patch(es).

      I started to do all of them every day when dinged but realized after few days that this isn't why I'm p(l)aying this game. A little bit of dailies per day but I don't really care if takes forever to get all of them to exalted.

      Currently I'm looking forward for some sort of announcement from Blizzard side. I can tell you, there is something incoming.

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    3. Yeah, I really think they need to address this. Another small-ish daily hub will be fine every major patch, but another cycle like this will piss off a significant number of people.

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    4. Aaaaand, here's the gem:

      "The conflict between the Horde and the Alliance has ignited a new series of daily quests along the shore of the Krasarang Wilds."

      FFS.

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    5. I noticed that. Unbelievable especially when lots of people is still starting up their current dailies. I bet there won't be much new dailies, at least I have such a feeling.

      GG Blizz! >:)

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    6. Makes me wonder if this is a new design philosophy or is just to keep players paying and hanging on with the train.

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    7. SpiritusRex12/10/12

      I hope you don't mind me jumping in mid-stream, but, Wil, your most recent comment sparked a thought. That is, do you think the dailies end up keeping more people hooked? Personally, I think it has the opposite effect. That is, why are people going to continue subscribing when they know it's just the same grind of dailies. Further, I guess the bigger question that no one has seemed to address is this: What happens when we finish our rep grinds? What'll there be to do on off-raid nights? 'Cause, to me, this whole daily rep grind approach really does not lend itself to alt-playing/raiding.

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    8. It's cool SpiritusRex, feel free to join our conversation.

      Actually I've been thinking dailies as a method of developing your character for a long time. At least longer than my latest comment might made it look. To be honest I think there are some players who are trying to "complete" the game or are just enthusiasts so they feel like they have to do the dailies and gain reputations. But that's just a minority, of course the majority of people aren't focusing on this game so much that they would sacrifice their precious time to dailies.

      Personally I think it's just a habit for me to try perform as well as possible though I'm in a guild with one raid night per week. I feel like my character is incomplete if there is something like reputations incomplete. Probably a stupid mentality and approach, I admit.

      About the end of dailies, I personally like PvP. Actually I love it so there is always something for me to do. For PvE'ers it's a different case I guess. Leveling and alt is an option I guess or achievement hunting.

      When I get my last professin - fishing - to 600, I'm going to start leveling my first (maybe the last) alt from 85 to 90.

      P.S. I prefer intensive farming of stuff over this daily quest method. There should be an option to gain reputation without doing dailies.

      P.P.S. This post is written by following my mind-flow. :D

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    9. SpiritusRex12/10/12

      It sounds like you and I seem to approach the game the same way - and,I agree, I feel that my character is incomplete if there is something incomplete so I don't think it is a stupid mentality at all - anything worth doing is worth doing correctly, right? :)

      The alt-problem (which I didn't do a very good job of explaining) is probably a more personal one in that I like to raid on a number of multiple characters and the mere thought of slogging through the same dailies not only on 1, but up to 3 characters just seems so mind-numbingly boring that I'm not sure I'll even want to do it. Which of course then results in either (a) finding something else for them to do, (b) resenting the fact that in order for them to each be raid-ready, I HAVE to do the dailies, and/or (c) just saying screw it and not play as much WoW. And, in the long-term, I don't think any of those options results in long-term retention for a lot of the player base.

      P.S. Agreed. Farming>Dailies
      P.P.S. Do not shun the mind flow - follow your chi!

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    10. My incoming warlock alt is pretty much only for PvP purposes like alt-arenas and bg's so I don't have to do dailies again. What a relief.

      Basicly I think it's possible to gear up a character for entry level raids via heroic dungeons only. But like usual, a beautiful theory gets devastated by a cruel truth.

      I might try to gear up warlock for PvE if it looks like we have solid alt raids incoming in the future with our guild or with some of our "co-guilds". If so, it's going to be through heroics if possible. Dailies aren't an option.

      Anyway, I think it was more satisfying to hit exalted with Sha'tar Skyguards after intensive farming than getting exalted with Ogri'la after tedious daily quest grind.

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